M.I.A. - Interview with Kehinde Wiley: Interview Magazine lyrics

I wanted to ask you about
The progression of your
Work these days how are
You finding it? Because
New York is a really different place to make
Art compared to what it used to be

I came here almost 10 years ago
Now it was my first
Experience of making a life for
Myself outside of school
And my career kind of snowballed at once
So there's really not much in
The way of an alternative experience for
Me to contrast it with these
Days I'm spending quite a bit
Of time on the road
Which finally has allowed me to get some
Perspective i'm starting a new project
Where I open up studios in different
Nations and do street casting


I just got back from Brazil
And Nigeria and Senegal actually
Tomorrow I'm leaving for New DelhiM: Does
Leaving New York change your art?

That type of process becomes the work
In many ways-physically removing
Yourself from
What your work was based on before
By and large what I'd
Been doing was mining the
Streets of African America, using a sort
Of urban vernacular that changes radically
When you remove yourself physically
Especially around the world

Manhattan seems pretty developed
You know what I mean? Like it has peaked in
Culture the Village Voice called it McHattan
It's just become impossible for young
Creative artists to live in New York

Where do you find it most fruitful to work?

Yeah, I know

You create that light
You create that visual or image in America
Everything has been done we've
Had everything and
Now we're rerunning what's already been done

Right, recycling the recycled object

Exactly! I performed at a show at the
MoMA there was this big dinner there
And I was seated in this hall with the mayor
Of New York and all
These extremely wealthy art-
Supporting and art-buying people there
Was a piece of
Work hanging in the hall-it was a
Fan this fan was supposed to swing by
The momentum of it's own propeller so
While we were having
Dinner, the fan was stopped, and the guy next
To me, a curator at PS1, said, "Look
This is what art symbolizes today" Like
That piece of art is supposed to be moving
But just to have dinner we've stopped
The art that's what New
York is like today you can't
Have real art happen
In an institution because rich people
Can make the world stop
The stuff on the street is
A lot more interesting

New york, there is almost a feeling of
Entitlement by the public
This very palpable lack of surprise at being
Stopped in the street and being asked to be
The subject of a 12-foot monumental painting
KEHINDE WILEY

I think so, too there's a freshness i
Remember being in West
Africa and thinking about my father's country
He's from Nigeria-and I was there
Opening up a studio, doing a lot of street
Casting, stopping people
And there was this film crew with me because
We were doing a documentary on my process
And I was contrasting the experience I had
There with the experience I had doing
The exact same street casting in
Places like the Fulton Street
Mall, in Brooklyn and it's amazing
How, in New York
There is almost a feeling of entitlement by
The public-this very palpable lack of
Surprise at being stopped in the
Street and being asked
To be the subject of a 12-foot monumental
Painting i think part of that is mediated by
A very televisual sense of instant celebrity
Something that's sort of "just add
Water"-an age where reality
Television mediates the way that we see new
Faces entering our lives whereas
When I was in
Nigeria, in places like Lagos and Calabar
There was a very ineffable exchange
Where these guys were
Really curious but also so far removed
From this artificial environment that I
Was creating it gave something new to
The work in some ways
There is a look in the paintings
That seems a bit more fragile

It's like cinema
When you put someone onscreen
Who's never been
On before you show it to them and say
"This is you this is what you look
Like on a 60-by-60-foot screen"
It's a different
Understanding of art take India: Even
Though it's got a major movie industry
When it comes to contemporary art
Artists on the streets don't see themselves
As artists-it's like a skilled job when
They're painting a car and
They decorate it with all this
Crazy stuff, I think, "Wow
This is amazing! It's something I would hang
On my wall" But they're
Always really shocked when
I go up to them and ask
Them to do something for me do you
Think that's what you're going for
Looking for ideas outside of the disposable
"just add water" kind of thing?

My desire is to restart the
Conversation it's akin to this
Idea that most 18-year-olds who are
Going to be voting
For the first time this year
In the American elections
Were 10 and 11 years old during the 9
11 attacks-this idea that we're all kind
Of collectively correcting and rebooting
This desire to throw away the old
Rules this is something that, as artists
We constantly
Deal with-throwing away the past
Slaying the father, and creating the new

Yeah, change you know, what really drives me
Mad about art is that, in America
The only thing you can do is to
Take it apart as artists
That's the best commentary you can
Do because there's just so much
Vacuous content for example
Yesterday I stayed in bed for
24 hours and watched TV i do
That, like, every six months
Where I just don't answer phone calls
And the only thing I do
Is watch television and it's insane! I
Couldn't tell the difference between the
News and an advert it's all
Fox News, 30-second sound bites
And there was nothing I got from it at all
Where the fuck are all the Michael Moores in
Our culture? Where are the
Cool Democrats? Where are
Cool people on television? Where
Has cleverness gone?
KW: The trouble is that the traditional
Targets have been so co-opted
It's hard to know where to
Cast your aim so much
Of what changed American society in the
'60s had to do with
A very strong set of targets-what
We can physically do
With ourselves and our bodies now
It's much more subtle it's
Almost debilitating in a way because
We can't organize either, artistically
Or politically or socially, against
Any specific thing, because it's more
Like an essence, an ether that
Floats in the air
Poisoning our ability to really
Have an authentic moment

That's what I miss, being a real human like
I'm just so grateful for the 10 years
That I had in Sri Lanka
When it was in the middle of a war and I was
Getting shot at
Because now and again I remember
Glimpses of those times and I just go
"Wow, I'll never, ever see that again in my
Life and I'm never gonna feel that
And I'm never gonna feel for
A human being like that"

When was the last time you
Were back in Sri Lanka?

Just before September 11th happened
After that it was
Insane to even try to go back
With all the new
Restrictions when I was there I
Was already having a machine gun held to my
Head every five seconds, and every 50
Yards I'd have to show my ID i wasn't a
Singer at the time-I was just a random girl
An artist i was making films
And I had just graduated from Saint
Martins in London i thought
I was invincible like
I'm getting harassed and I have a
British passport i have a
Letter from the Ministry of Defence!
What if I were just
A random Tamil girl from the
Village i could be dead!
It was the weirdest experience i
Couldn't even make a
Movie because you can't make one without
Having it okayed by the
Sri Lankan embassy so you can
Only have a one-sided
Story do you think art in
America is like all other
Industries? That there are certain parameters
You can't go past?

Certainly i think I've come
Through the art-industrial
Complex-I've been educated in some of
The best institutions and been privy to
Some of the insider conversations around
Theory and the evolution of art but
That doesn't necessarily get spoken about
Outside of a very small group when
You operate outside those rules
You are changing
The vernacular i think that's partly
The success of my
Work-the ability to straddle both
Of those worlds
The ability to have a young black girl walk
Into the Brooklyn Museum and
See paintings she
Recognizes not because of their art
Or historical influence but because of their
Inflection, in terms of colors
Their specificity and presence

That’s partly the success of my
Work the ability to have
A young black girl walk
Into the brooklyn museum
And see paintings she recognizes not
Because of their art
Or historical influence but because
Of their inflection kEHINDE WILEY

Yeah, that's how I felt about your work the
First time I saw it it felt establishment
But it was also breaking it a
Little bit and twisting it
Do you feel a responsibility to
Teach something in your work?

That's a question I have always
Grappled with is that
Even my job? Is that gonna slow you down?

In the beginning I definitely felt a
Responsibility because I was representing
A bunch of people who never
Got represented before i felt
This responsibility to correct
That situation, to be like, "Look
You can't discriminate against refugees
And Muslim people and blah, blah
Blah " Now I don't feel that
So much it's complicated hold on
A second are you there? I just
Got stung by a bee

Are you serious?

Yeah it's the first time I've ever been stung

You have to be careful with
That some people have
Major allergic reactions!

I know i'm wearing flower-print
Pants i think he
Thought I was a bunch of flowers

Drawn in by the flowers that's great

Anyway, getting back
Do you feel a responsibility?

That's a very complicated question when
I was growing up and going to art school and
Learning about African-American art
Much of it was a type of political art that
Was very didactic and based on the '60s
And a social collective i feel
Sometimes constrained by the
Expectation that the work should
Be solely political i
Try to create a type of work that is at
The service of my own set of criteria
Which have to do with beauty and a type of
Utopia that in some ways speaks to the
Culture I'm located in but
Americans are so overly
Fixated on racial identity-and on
Identity in general

It seems incredibly self-indulgent

I think there's something important in
Going against the grain
And perhaps finding value in things
That aren't necessarily
Institutionally recognized

Exactly! I want to find a taxi
Driver in India and ask him
Where he got the sticker that goes
Across his windshield that decorative
Choice comes from the idea that maybe
It's good to tell your
Vehicle apart from everyone else's when
You get off of break

Right, very real

M: They also do it because they want
To show off if they buy a
Shop, they're gonna name the shop after their
Kid if they drive a taxi
They name the taxi after their mom

This sort of reminds me of
Growing up in South
Central Los Angeles back in
The '80s, you know
Where so many people were flossing
Down Crenshaw Boulevard with their
Lowriders and hydraulics and stuff
And it was this major scene for me it was
Always important to internalize that type of
Flossing when I was at Yale
Most of the students there were obsessed with
This type of neo-minimalism that thought
That any garish display or show of
Emotion or visceral beauty was something
To be scoffed at i think conversely
It made me revert back to
Some of the more ornate or baroque
Features of black American culture

At yale, most of the students there
Were obsessed with this
Type of neo-minimalism i think it made me
Revert back to some of the more ornate
Or baroque features of black American culture
KEHINDE WILEY

That's exactly what happened with me because
I spent time in LA, too
Growing up on gangster rap my
Cousin was a gangster bitch
And she knew the Bloods
And the Crips and she was Sri Lankan
So we'd go to all these clubs
Down on Crenshaw then I would
Come back to college at Saint Martins
And I was learning a whole
Other way like having
That whole '90s Hip-Hop from LA and then
Going to Saint Martins
Where it's all the Britpop stuff about being
Shy and hating yourself i was
A Sri Lankan refugee, like, the scum of
Society, and then I went right to
Los Angeles, into African-American culture
And it was just incredible i've
Never seen black people like
That in England in England
Black people still live
Within the parameters of white society
It was an eye-opener
Then I'd be in school and the students
Would be like, "I'm white, and I'm male
And I don't know
What to do, I hate myself" I was just like
There is this
Contemporary culture in America
That's writhing with
So much good shit and bad
Shit that no one is really
Making art out of yet, you know?

Sometimes there's that tipping point
Where societies -embrace who they are
Without necessarily needing a dominant
Culture or center to recognize
The periphery i remember
Being in Nigeria back in 1997 and
Meeting a bunch of MCs
Practicing their skills outside this bar
And I was just like
"This is an amazing scene!" And
How many people really know about what was
Going on in the Hip-Hop scene
In Nigeria back in the early '90s?
These guys were really complaining about
How they just couldn't get any play
At home and how most of
What was consumed in terms of black
Culture was American of course
Now you go to Nigeria and
It's a completely different scene
It's just overrun with amazing acts
And I think that's
Kind of indicative of a type
Of self-confidence that people
Develop when they recognize their
Own ability to create

Yeah also
It could be the sort of declining grip
Of the American MTV nation culture-the fact
That MTV doesn't play so much music anymore
When I would go to Africa
I used to get really pissed off that
People would listen to 50 Cent in
Like, a mud hut and want DVD players
And a GPS in their SUVs, you know?

Now, why would that piss you off?

I felt pissed off because I realized
That you have to teach
People in a clichéd way how
To be happy-and happiness has
Become too one thing in American
Media achieving happiness is not
Really about having a flat stomach
And the best car

That's fine! You can say, "Get the
SUV, " but you can't say
"Get the SUV before you get a
House" You know what I mean? Okay
There's a kid in a mud hut I don't want
To teach him bad habit's because
I live in Brooklyn brooklyn
New York City! And I feel like I'm
Living in the dead weeds of
Hip-Hop i live in the graveyard of
What went wrong with Hip-Hop

Well, what went wrong with gangster rap?

It's not even gangster rap-it's just
What's wrong with Hip-Hop it
Became so one-dimensional itbecame like
A businessman thing it's
Run out of creativity it went
So far off about
Making money that now everyone can do it

I wonder, though
Because I think about this quite a bit when I
Think of someone like Jeff Koons, whom
I admire quite a bit
But aesthetically this type
Of emptiness is the point-this
Type of soullessness
And devotion to the signifiers of
Happiness and consumption are you prepared to
Say that that type of Hip-Hop-soulless
Empty Hip-Hop-is interesting on some level?

Well, I would have said, "yeah, it was
" 10 years ago but now I've had 10 years-

Yeah, it's not funny anymore it's good you're
Taking your work everywhere and you're
Making it global i think all relevant
Work needs to be like that

One of the really great things
About working in Lagos
Is that it's such a crazy assault on
The senses the population has
Been rising since oil
Was discovered there in the late '60s
But public sculpture has been
There since even before
The colonial years all my models are
Asked to choose which pose
They're going to assume
And those poses are derived
From portrait's of former
Colonial masters or generals
Or military dictators or what have you
Many of them cast in
Public squares what comes
Out of people's minds about which
Person they'd prefer to be
Now that they've been asked to
Sort of open their eyes to what's been there
In their own backyard-

I have this artist I work with
Called Afrikan Boy he was on
My album, and he's from Lagos
Nigeria, and he's always like
"I want to be the African dream!"
I think that's so cool
I like the way he represents
More than that modern outsider

If I were going to paint you, if I
Could paint you as any historical figure
Who would it be? Now, you have to
Realize it's all your look and feel
But I'm asking you about the pose

A historical figure?

And think about it in terms
Of a preexisting iconic work
Of art for instance, when Ice T came by
He wanted to be this really great
Painting of Napoleon by Ingres

It's really hard there are so
Many people who -inspire me
I'll have to think about it and e mail you

Okay